1996 - Sun Microsystems - Cindy Hill

Cindy Hill
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, California

Interviewed by Doreen Cohen, February 20, 1996

This is Doreen Cohen interviewing Cindy Hill at Sun Microsystems in Mountain View, Tuesday, February 20, 1996.

Thank you very much. As you know, we will be using excerpts of the interview for the Faultline, and it will be my intention to put the transcript, the whole transcription, into the home page--the SLA home page.

Ok.

What would you say to the person who is entering a program in library and information science today?

Well, I’m always very curious as to why they’re going into the program. What interests them. Because in many cases it’s their second or third or fourth career. And I’m interested in the path that they have followed to get to this point. However, I’m assuming that the question really means what kind of skills I think people are looking for?

If they came to you and just said I'm going to start in September and I'd like to know what you think is important. Is there any advice that you might give them?

I get really excited about people who are flexible in their thinking, and creative and have an interest in information regardless of what kind of format it comes in. Because we’ve seen print, microfilm, microfiche, CD-ROMs, online services--and now of course with the Internet, the Web and all of the different access methods--that it’s important for people to not be tied into any one kind of approach to the information. So, flexibility is incredibly important in my perception.

Ok. Would you say anything different or add an additional thought to people who are graduating say in June--Going out for their first job?

Right--I would say reach high. That frequently people underestimate their capabilities or their skills. They come out with a basic set of skills, but they need to look at the job application and say, "I can do that." And use the cover letter as a way to demonstrate how their resume shows what skills they have. And not to be afraid to apply for the job, because the worse thing is, is that somebody will say no, I’m not going to accept your resume. But the best thing is, is that they will actually look at it and say, I’m willing to interview this person. And then it might turn into a job offer. So, to reach higher than they think they should.

What is it that excites you about your work?

Oh, the variety...and the people that I get to work with. Both in the times where I’ve been a one-person library to a multi-person library, and then all of the people that come to us with questions and help and assistance. I found that...I had planned on being a school librarian. And part-way through my educational process I realized through the help of many people that that was not going to happen because there just weren’t any jobs that paid anything in the school environment. And so I was introduced into the corporate world. And I went into the corporate environment kicking and screaming. I did not want to work for large companies--I did not want to work for a company because I did not know anything about them. And luckily for me, somebody hired me--Ann Porter Roth, who was also a San Andreas President. And she showed me what the corporate world can do and what it had. And I quickly discovered that the corporate environment gives me what the school library would have done, which is the same clientele. I would get to see them day after day, and work with them year after year. Because the kids would grow up, the teachers would be there. So, continuity was really important to me to see that, and to be able to work with them on a long-term basis. And that’s what you get in the corporate world.

I would never have thought of that.

Can you tell me a little bit about who has influenced you in your professional life and how?

In my professional life from a personal level, a number of people. First of all, my mom and my dad. Both of them were highly supportive of any kind of activities their children wanted to pursue, and just encouraged us to try and actually do what we love to do. So, I went to college and majored in English. Now how useful of a degree is that? But I loved English and both my parents taught us that it’ll work out--you will find something to do. So both Mom and Dad were incredibly influential in that area. But then outside of my family, people like Mary Jo De Muccio at Sunnyvale Public Library--she’s retired now--she was one of the ones that pushed me out of the public library nest and said you’ve got to find a real job. Because again, they weren’t going to be hiring librarians for many, many years. And she also--actually she’s the one who introduced me to the corporate world and then Ann Porter Roth hired me. Monica Ertel at Apple. Pam Jayko [sp?] at Syntex. And then there’ve been other librarians across the country.

About Monica and Pam, what would you say you remember from them?

What I learned from them--and I continually learn from them--that adversity is not a problem, that it’s there to challenge us and to make us think about other solutions and not the obvious ones. And I look at their steadfastness and their persistence, and also their obvious love and dedication to the people that they work with and then also to the profession. And that’s what I see over and over again. We’re just so information rich in this valley, and we have such strong leaders in this valley with the librarians that they’re quite admirable. I really enjoy having had the opportunity to work with them and continue working with them.

When you think back, what was the most rewarding experience in your professional career?

Well, there’s been a lot. I don’t think that I could say that there’s been a most rewarding one. A recent one was one that my staff and I came up with at one of my companies--which was we were going through a downsizing, and I had been directed to lay off staff, and came back to my staff and told them that this is what was going to happen. And they came up with an alternative solution, which was to reduce their hours. And we talked about it and we worked out the pros and cons of it. I took it back to management, and although they did not want to do it, they said since I was the manager that they would let me go with this decision. And I was just really quite pleased that the company was able to listen to our department and let us make the decision and work through a lot of the problems of the downsizing issues. And to me that was a major accomplishment--that my management skills...they were actually put to the test as whether or not I could convince upper management to go along with something that they had not thought about doing. Basically to rescind their request to lay off people and come up with an alternative plan.

[Benefits might have been an issue. That might be questioned in another situation.]

Exactly. It had to be a unanimous decision with all of my staff. If any one person did not want to reduce their hours, the plan would not have worked. And they all came together, and it was a unanimous and it was an anonymous vote. In fact, they did not even vote to me, they voted to HR. They called in so that they did not have to identify themselves. And every one of them agreed to reduce their hours. And it was for a finite period of time. But it was just so neat to see everybody working together coming up with a solution to save jobs, reduce the work, reduce the salary requirement on the company. And then in a different vein, I would say another thing I’m quite pleased with is the San Francisco and San Andreas Chapters involvement that I’ve been having over the years. All the activities that I’ve been asked to participate in and have volunteered for. Because I learn so much from them. I get to meet incredible people and work with them. And I have learned a lot about management through my volunteer activities. And those skills have been directly applicable to my job. So, that’s been one of the really tangible benefits of being active in the Chapter.

[The volunteering--such as holding office.]

Right. Right. I started off as the secretary...well, actually I started off through committee work. And then I was asked to run for secretary, and I won that election--you kind of wonder what did you really win. And then I was asked to run for president and I won that election. And I learned so much through those. And then since then I’ve always been some kind of committee chair both on a local level and now on a national level. And it just continually hones my skills in time management, project management, people management--all of those things have been directly transferable to my real job.

Could you discuss whether you see today's challenges as being any different from those of your graduating class?

I don’t see them as being different. I see them as being more. It’s the same sort of skills but they’re used in a variety of ways. And the way I’ve always looked at it is that...for instance, I did not want to take cataloging. I knew I wasn’t going to be a cataloger, that I was not good at detail. But of course, cataloging was a required class and so I took it. What I actually learned out of cataloging was not necessarily Dewey Decimal or the Library of Congress system, but I learned how to classify and organize materials. And I would not have learned that in any other of my classes. And all of those skills--I walked out of library school and I was immediately thrown into online searching. It was brand new in my decade. And I realized that those databases are organized or they’re not organized. Or, I get a whole new collection of materials, and how am I going to organize the materials. And I don’t necessarily have to use Dewey or Library of Congress. So, I have that basic set of skills that tells me how to break down information. And that’s what I see library schools providing--is this core of basic set of skills that we can walk away with and use in any environment. Just like we’re looking at the Internet now, and seeing that it looks like it’s simply chaos. Well how can we go in there and parcel it out so it’s reusable again and again. So that’s why I don’t see it as being really different. I think we’re adding more onto our basic foundation. More complexity, but basically they’re the same skills.

[So formats change, but the skills don't change...]

Right. Right. Cognitive thinking is really important. Being able to break apart a puzzle and then put it back together again. And to see long term. Just not get bogged down in little details.

You mentioned the San Andreas chapter and the early days of that--you were one of the founding members I believe--could you share a little bit about how you all went about establishing the chapter and what was your involvement?

Well, I was actually not enthusiastic about it. Because I had such strong ties with San Francisco. I wasn’t sure we needed a chapter and I did not like the idea of dividing or being separated from the San Francisco people because I was still learning and so connected to all of those people. So, it was really difficult for me to support the concept of it. But the more talking that we did, the better understanding that I had of the valley--how it was different than the city--made me go ahead with the idea and encourage it and support it. And then also a lot of my fears were taken away because we all agreed that we wanted to have a joint directory and at least one joint meeting every year. And...so...there were several other things that we worked on together. So, knowing that we were still going to have strong ties with the chapter--and, of course, we could pay an extra few dollars and we could belong to both chapters really took away a lot of that. The valley was growing so fast and there were so many libraries being set up that it started to make sense. Because traffic was a real problem and we were starting to see a drop in the attendance at meetings because nobody could get to them. And vice versa--San Francisco people couldn’t make it down here. And it also excluded a lot of the East Bay librarians because they had to go even further than the San Francisco [librarians]. So, it was an exciting time. And there was hesitation not only from me but from others about splitting away. But when it finally came down to vote, we did, knowing that we would still have strong connections. I remember that lunch. We all sat around and made the decision that we were going to do this. And what was really wonderful was that San Francisco supported us. And they gave everybody lots of encouragement. So there was no negative strong feelings about it at all.

So the decision was actually made at a meeting with both San Francisco and Silicon Valley people presenr or was it the group that was going eventually to head up the San Andreas chapter?

I don’t really remember. I believe it was mostly the San Andreas-type people. But all of the officers of the San Francisco Chapter new about it and were giving us lots of encouragement and supporting us and sharing by-laws. And all of that was very open.

Can you tell me a little bit about how you became associated with...Failure Analysis?

Well, I had been with Failure Analysis for eleven years before I came to Sun. And the way I heard about the position at Failure was that I was teaching at Foothill College in addition to working my regular full-time job, and one of my students told me about the position. Because she was a clerk there at Failure, and she said it was about time that Failure had a real librarian because they were growing so much. And I interviewed for the position and fell in love with it. It was such an unusual company. It is an unusual company. It analyzes disasters. And they look at things like airplane crashes, corks exploding out of champagne bottles, firework manufacturing companies exploding, tires falling off of airplanes--just anything and everything that can fail. Except for marriages and businesses--those are the ones that we didn’t do.

Did people come to Failure Analysis for assistance or did they find about something that had failed and go out there and try to find out why?

Both ways. In many cases, our clients knew about Failure. They were in a law suit situation or...for instance, we worked on the Golden Gate Bridge, which has not failed, but they wanted to have it inspected by a neutral third party to see how the bolts were degrading--if they were degrading at the rate that they thought they were or faster. And Failure does a lot of preventive inspection and analysis in addition to after-the-fact failures. Most of the work that Failure has gotten has been through word of mouth from prior clients knowing about us and just being pleased with the work.

And you set up their library there.

They had a small library. Like most corporate libraries, it was a room full of books. And they had a library clerk working there. Actually, they had two of them--both of them did not equal a full-time clerk. But I would say I set it up, and put organization to it, and structure and then started providing services. I started providing the first online searches and research services that the company had.

Did you find that you had the kind of support that you needed?

I did. Yes. When I had interviewed for the position, I actually interviewed with the president plus ten other people. So, it was a very long interview process. And those engineers bought into the idea of a librarian and a researcher and a library. And I found that through the entire time I was at Failure, those ten people always supported me. And it was wonderful having them all in my interview process, because once they made the hiring decision it was like they had a vested interest in making sure that I succeeded--because they had gone through the interview, they had made the decision to bring this person in. So it worked out really wonderfully well. Failure is very much committed to information. They need information in order to do their analysis, and they were always looking for people who were entrepreneurial in nature. So, anything that we could do to make their jobs easier, they took. They said, fine, go ahead and do it. So, for instance, we were always top notch at finding the hard-to-find article--something that had been published in the 1950’s, but nobody knew where it was. Or maybe it had been given as a speech, but did the person really actually publish it. So, if we could find those...and once the engineers realized that, they started asking us to buy things for them. Find us a 1982 set of tires, find us a 1978 Winnebago. We bought an engine to a speed boat. We bought inline skates. Because they needed to have these exemplar items, and they did not know where to go for them. So we did. One of our examples was we had to find six helmets for ATVs, and they had to be a certain model. And the staff--we called all over the country. We found them in little mom-and-pop shops, and we would pay for them, and they would ship them out to us. The only thing that we weren’t successful at was finding a can of dried worms. And these were imported worms, and we wanted the can because it had a special warning label on it, and that was the one thing we couldn’t find. Never did find it.

Where did you report in organizationally?

At Failure I reported throughout the company and all the years I was there, most of the time it was at the vice president level. And then that person reported directly to the president.

Do you think that was significant?

It definitely was. I reported into R&D, to the Metallurgy Group and various other groups. And it gave us a high visibility. It also...because I was reporting to a vice president, could spend time with him. I got him to understand--the various vice presidents--to understand what we did. So, it was actually a subtle way of marketing, because usually the vice president did not know anything about my department until I started reporting to him. And then it was a learning process, and then he would question, well--why are you doing this?--and then would understand, and he and his group would start using the services even more.

So do you think that the value of the library was always assumed or do you think that you had to establish that?

I had to establish it and I had to always keep it going. It was never assumed because even when Failure was doing really well...when there was a lot of money...the money didn’t necessarily easily flow to the department. And so I constantly had to keep it a high, visible item. Otherwise, people would just spend the money on other resources. And we needed the resources just as much as they did. It was difficult because the engineers felt that they needed to have tools to get their jobs done. But then they would come to us, and if we didn’t have tools to get our jobs done, it looked like weren’t competent. We knew we could do the job if we had the right tools.

Did you ever...in some situations as you know here in Silicon Valley, as soon as the company falls on hard times the first thing they cut is the library. Do you think that you were ever in jeopardy there?

Oh yes, definitely. In fact, we went through four, almost five lay-offs towards the end of my tenure there. And we were able to miss or be passed over about three of them. And through attrition the staff was reduced, but not through lay-offs. And then towards the end that’s when I had to finally lay off staff. But it was with a lot of discussing what are our core services, what is absolutely essential for the engineers to have. And I kept taking a look at the percentage of staff that I had when I first started to the number of engineers--what that ratio was. And as the company grew, and when the company grew, so did my staff. And when the company shrunk, so did my staff. And that made sense because we didn’t have as many engineers to support as we originally had. So my staff shrunk in proportion to that.

Did you ever think that they would actually eliminate the library?

We talked about it. We talked about completely closing it down and have the engineers do the work themselves. We also talked about outsourcing the library. And what does the library mean, what are those services? We looked at what are absolutely essential services like receiving periodicals, or doing literature searches, doing telephone research, acquiring the hard-to-find things. And it was up to the library council to make that determination as to what core services were. And then we would put the staff on there. We also worked a lot with the engineers on projects, so I would have staff assigned to projects and then when the project was over they would come back to me. And so we were pretty well ingrained in the system and in the company, and that made a big difference in how we were perceived. So it was never an easy cut--oh, we can just cut the library, because we don’t really know why we’re using them. We were highly visible. We charged back our time. We charged back our expenses. So, we were seen as a revenue generating department.

Can you share why you decided to move over to Sun?

Oh, sure. There were four reasons. Let’s see if I can remember them--it’s almost a year that I started the interview process. For me, Failure had stopped being a challenge. I needed to have some technical challenges that, unfortunately, Failure was unable to provide. But at Sun, I was able to jump right into the technology--that’s what I saw--all this equipment. You know, what is Sun, what is Java, what’s UNIX--their high involvement with the Internet. And then...so, technology was important and to be able to continue to hone my skills. I also wanted to work for a very large company. I’d never worked for any company larger than 600 employees and Sun has over 14,000. So, I wanted to see what the differences were and I wanted to experience that. And then...that’s two. I can’t remember what the fourth one was. The third one is that this is an outsourced library. All of the staff are not Sun employees. We are actually Adia employees. And I wanted to face that head on. I wanted to find out if there was anything that I as the library manager could do to learn about the process and also help the process. You have the outsourced organization like Adia, and then you have the company that’s hiring the staff, and then you have the staff--and who’s taking care of the staff? Who’s looking after the staff? [CAN YOU SPELL THAT FOR ME?] A-D-I-A. And it’s an international company, it’s actually based in Switzerland and it’s something like $2.5 billion in revenue. It’s a very, very large temporary and full placement company. And they have the library service. And what’s interesting about Sun is that Sun’s library has always been outsourced. So, it didn’t start off insourced and then people were laid off and brought back in. So I think that we’re in a different situation. Also, three of my staff have been here five years, so it’s a long-term commitment by Sun. And every year--yes, our contract does expire--every year so far...cross our fingers...it has been renewed. Because we’ve shown value. We’ve shown services. And it’s worked out this way. There are pros and cons to it. And one of the reasons I took the job is I wanted to see what the pros and cons were.

I know a lot of companies do consider that outsourcing.

It’s very threatening. It can be very scary. But--I would not have taken a job just because it was outsourced--but when Sun approached me about the position and I realized that it was an outsourced one, I figured, well--here’s an opportunity to learn about it. So, might as well just see what’s going on with the outsourcing world.

If you were going to interview someone in Silicon Valley about our profession, who would you pick and what would be your reasons?

As in...give me a for instance.

If you were going to take my place...It doesn't necessarily have to be a librarian, but something to do with our profession.

There are a couple of people. Paul Sappho from the Institute for Future Strategies or Thinking (I can’t remember). I’ve heard him speak and I’ve read some of his material, and I think he’s a very interesting and dynamic individual. I would like to get further into his head. And then also there’s an individual here at Sun named John Gage who has been talking a lot about the digital library and I’ve been trying to get a hold of him and find out what he knows about libraries--what his perception is on that. And then a third person I’d like to interview again--I did get to talk with him--is Dr. Sutton at San Jose State. He’s an incredibly creative individual and has some very unique insights into information and our profession.

If you were not a librarian, what would you be doing?

I’d love to be an astronaut. I went to Space Camp as an adult in Huntsville, Alabama. It was wonderful. I just think the whole space program in incredible. I think we should be exploring and researching that so much more. Because I find that--what I see having the space program is--even if we never make it to another planet, it’s the fact that we’re out there reaching for things that are so hard to get to, it forces and allows people to be expansive and creative and come up with solutions. And then that technology and knowledge gets transferred down to our everyday world. And we get to grow from it. I’d love that opportunity. I don’t know if I’d ever survive it if I ever made it into a space shuttle. I’d probably get completely motion sick. But just the idea of thinking about people going to the Moon and just traveling around and I think that’s so incredible.

You did enjoy space camp?

Space Camp was wonderful.

What was the best thing?

Being able to play around on the equipment and experiencing what it would be like to walk on the Moon. We got to put a space suit on. We had lectures, so we got to learn about the shuttle and the rockets. We made our own little rockets and set them off. Because we were adults, we got to get up early and stay up late--unlike the kids. They were having their own programs. Ours was a completely adult program. I just learned so much. In the group that I was with, the common denominator was that we all wanted to go to Space Camp. And then there was a wide variety of people. It was about 60% men and 40% women. And they were from all different professions--we had a librarian (me), we had an 84-year-old woman, an attorney, other professional people. We had single people, married people, people with children. It was such a neat mix of individuals.

So you had the one thing that brought you together.

Yeah--right--that was the one bond that we had.

How do you personally go about changing with changing times?

I read a lot. I talk to my friends. And then I attend seminars that aren’t necessarily in the most obvious library connection or link. So, I will go to book talks that I may not know anything about, whether it’s a technology or a history book talk, but just something that forces me to think about things in a different way. So, I will attend things like Computer Literacy book talks or Printer’s, Inc., or Clean, Well-Lighted books. And I read a lot of non-library publications. Both full books, but then a lot of magazines like The New Yorker, Harper’s--just things that are going to force me to look at things differently. In addition to the library publications I can keep up with...

Oral history interviews are intended as a primary source for future historians to look at. And if you could reach out to that future historian who might come across this interview, is there something that you would like to convey?

Yes. I think that we’re living in such exciting and dynamic and passionate times right now and I hope that it continues that way. We’re seeing so many changes around the world with more people becoming aware of other cultures and other people that it’s broadening--hopefully--it’s broadening the way we look at each other and how we work together. And we’re also seeing less emphasis on a person’s age--that that equates to knowledge. Because we’re seeing these young people who are programming for us and creating things and they are being recognized for their contributions. And I really like that merging and blending and acknowledgment of everybody’s skill levels. And I hope that we do more of that. And, again, for things like the Internet, opening up communications--we’re seeing other countries getting just as involved in developing their environment and their economic situations as what we would call countries like ours that have all of the resources. So, that to me is just what’s so exciting. You know, to see a fourteen-year-old being that excited about what they can do and being given the tools and finding the tools to go ahead and do it.

Is there a question that I should have asked that I didn't ask? Or is there a question that you wish I had asked?

You’ve asked some very thoughtful questions, Doreen. These have been fun to answer. They’re questions that I hadn’t expected, which is good because they make me think in different ways. No.

Well, if you consider that this ultimately will be going into the Faultline, is there something you would like to have an opportunity to share that I didn't actually touch on?

I think most people who go into our profession or who stay in it, do have a love of life and actually a real strong sense to help and work with people and systems, and I hope that if and when they do get discouraged, because we all go through that process, that they can find somebody to call in our profession and just get them out. In fact, I did that last week. I needed a push because I knew I had to write a proposal. And I just had been delaying on it. And I called up a colleague and said, "May I come over and spend some time with you and you be my ‘pusher’." And so we did that. She gave me the time and we worked through the proposal and by the time we were done, she said, "Now I’m excited. Now I’m ready to finish writing my proposal." So--it’s a helping profession. I hope that people never feel like they’re left alone. That they can always call anybody. That’s why our directories are here. Just pick up the phone. That’s it.

Well, thank you very much.